WILLIAM Yeh’s family has lived in India for generations. Still, the 33-year-old restaurant manager, a member of a small ethnic Chinese community in Kolkata, says he does not feel Indian.
“My parents were born in India, so was I. Yet I often feel like a second-class citizen,” Yeh told Reuters.” I speak Bengali and have worked with Indians but some people still make me feel like a foreigner,” he said. “The police asked extra questions when I applied for a passport. One reason was because I am Chinese.”
This rankles for somebody who belongs to a community that has been part of Calcutta’s history for more than 200 years. The first Chinese settler arrived in the city in 1780 during British colonial rule and started a sugar mill.
Disillusioned about being marginalised from mainstream Indian society, Yeh plans to move to the West just like hundreds of other Chinese who have left Calcutta and migrated to countries such as Canada, Austria and Sweden. As a result of the exodus over the past 12 years, the number of ethnic Chinese in Calcutta has plunged to about 4,500 people from more than 19,000 in 1990.
“When we go to villages, people stare. In cities, some make fun of us because we are different,” said Paul Chung, a former assistant school principal.
Calcutta is home to more than 90 percent of India’s dwindling Chinese community, which made a name for itself at the start of the 19th century as carpenters on ships at the city port.
Today, while some Chinese run restaurants and tanneries in the city of some 15 million people, others are carpenters or run shoe shops, laundries and beauty clinics. Most of them live in Tangra, Calcutta’s run down Chinatown, where restaurants with names written in Chinese characters sit cheek-by-jowl with old tanneries.
The tanneries, which once released untreated effluents into open drains flowing past the eateries, have been closed since the Supreme Court asked them earlier this year to move to a new industrial area with proper treatment plants.
“Though Tangra is still quite dirty. It was far worse 25 years ago when the tanneries were functioning. It really used to stink and one had to be very brave to eat there,” said Calcutta businessman Ravi Kumar.
The first Chinese settler, Yong Atchew, arrived some about 220 years ago and started a Chinese settlement in Calcutta when he brought more than 100 labourers from China to work at his mill. Many early settlers were also men who had jumped ship.
After 1949, Mao Zedong’s communist revolution in China sent a wave of Chinese emigres fleeing communism into Calcutta. Things became difficult for the Chinese when India and China fought a brief border war in 1962, leading to anti-Chinese sentiment in India.
Hundreds of people were sent to detention camps in Rajasthan. Monica Liu, now a partner in a successful chain of Chinese restaurants, was 12 years old when she was sent to a camp. “Along with my family, I was sent to a camp in Rajasthan, a hot desert state. I kept asking why? We weren’t criminals.”
“Later, I realised we were sent away because we were Chinese,” Liu, 52, said as customers poured into her smart restaurant. “Even when we were allowed out for a picnic, police followed us. Though things are better now, the suspicion is still there.”
Chung, also president of the Indian-Chinese Association, says the Chinese must take some blame for their relative isolation.
“They tell me they are harassed, but when I ask them to file a complaint in writing, they don’t want to.” Deputy Commissioner of Calcutta Police Sivaji Ghosh said he had not received any complaint of harassment of ethnic Chinese people but did not rule it out at the lower level.
Reuters
by Vinod, on 12.20.08 @ 2:37 pm
The above story is only a tip of the iceberg – a wake-up call.
The ongoing marginalization of Indian-Chinese by mainstream is written and etched in Indian history due to suspicion and lack of trust. A mockery to India being the world’s largest democracy and a secular country headed by a foreign born Christian & naturalized Indian woman of Italian origin – Sonia Gandhi – of India’s largest political Congress Party tells it all.
Just like the Anglo-Indians, another minority group, the Indian-Chinese who opt to remain as Indians (by birth) should build-up their own identity by having a MLA to represent them in their interests or choose one of their own from State to Central Authorities. The Indian Constitution should embrace and provide this.
by Suresh, on 12.21.08 @ 5:00 am
Speaking the native Indian languages does not help to reduce marginalization from society. The colour of one’s skin and the identity of unique features differentiate one from another; but not to be conceived as alien from Mars for others to stare at and make fun of. The aged old Indian civilization is tried, tested and put to SHAME.
Reporting harrassment to police does not help to eliminate or alleviate marginalization. The action only increases scars and dents for future retaliations by overly corrupted officials.
Discrimination, not marginalization, of some form exists in every country; however, in a multi-caste, religious, sectorial society like India, where one mainstream group often feel more superior than others – it is hard to imagine how Indian-Chinese will not be marginalized, discriminated and harrassed at lower and middle levels.
The State Authorities should wake up and role model to protect and preserve this minority group’s culture and existence before they further dwindle and disappear in Indian history forever.
by Bill, on 12.22.08 @ 7:22 pm
This scene is reminiscent of the days following the brief border war with China. Officials given a modicum of authority taking advantage of their positions to indiscriminately abuse the innocents. That was over forty years ago. Why is this still happening in today’s society. On the one hand, the Government is talking about preserving the heritage of the Indian-Chinese, yet with the other hand, officials are victimizing the same group that they talk about preserving. This is indeed shameful.
by Rahul, on 12.24.08 @ 5:32 am
Chinese community thrive in every country and can be found in all corners of the world. However, not many people know that a large successful Chinese community once existed in Kolkata, India, but now trickle down to a handful with impending exodus.
In South East Asia, their presence is found largely in Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia and Thailand. Through their hard work, many of them become wealthy industrialists, bankers and businessmen, while some make it to the top to become renowned politicians.
Unlike their counterparts in India, these Chinese communities receive due respect from mainstream acknowledging them as one of their very own for their contribution to society. Migration is few and far between.
Is there something missing in the Indian society that lack the ingredients to protect and insure this small and disappearing community to thrive and grow among fellow Indians ?
Acceptance of diversity is a practice and not only a jargon by Indian State and Central Authorities. Action is better than words.
by Dominic, on 12.24.08 @ 3:14 pm
Hypocrisy and jealousy by the mainstream existed throughout the history of Indian Chinese presence in Calcutta (now Kolkata), India till today of modern India. This became more evident immediately after India Independence from Great Britain – with power change from the Colonial to self-ruled Indian Government.
Those entitled to Indian citizenship were denied and those born after Independence were issued with Indian Passports only after much probing & questioning – suspicious of espionage and other illegal activities.
On day-to-day front and livelihood, the more assimilated and integrated the Indian Chinese become into mainstream; and the more successful they become in trade – the more they would be watched, followed and tracked by various groups of corrupted Indian officials, including police and security personnel. Whether these watch-dogs represent the low to middle levels of Indian society, they often prey as Goliaths upon Davids with some form of authority of abuse. While this cats-and-mice game circled around and acknowledged at the higher levels of Indian administration, nothing is ever done to protect, prevent and stop the victimization from worsening further with undue justice. Some Indian historians blamed on non-representation of Indian Chinese (MLA) in the Legislative Assembly to listen to their pleas, while others pointed out to Indian Chinese for being alarmed of retaliations but to maintain silence and to shun politics. The official verdict from the top is always the same – we have not heard anything of discrimation or abuse from Indian Chinese community.
In Biblical era, this form of mis-treatment would be termed persecution – a terminology that describe injustice put upon the innocence.
Can anyone help.
by arun gangwar, on 12.26.08 @ 9:46 am
Don’t think like that my dear. I could not change your fate but i could stand with at the time of need. I could make your presence felt with the help of NGO. I studied in Jamia Millia Islamia delhi. I studied with muslim students and some around 15% guys were also from the north eastern state. As they don’t like rest of the indian. They keep themselves away and in their own company. I never understood why they are keeping themselves aloof. I wanted them to talk with me, be friend with me. Sometimes i tried to talk with them but i didn’t broke the ice.If we are indian, we must have similar goal, similar feelings. So we must communicate with each other. These barriers will break off only when inter religion and inter regional marriages will be performed. I know something was wrong in the past. But now the things have changed. We are intellectual. Come and let us make a new india.
by Bill, on 01.07.09 @ 6:50 pm
Hi Arun,
I was born and raised in Calcutta, but am living in San Jose, California right now. I have not been back in Calcutta for a very long time, so I cannot speak to the current situation. However, what is happening now is very similar to what happened over 40 years ago. What I believe is different today is because of the internet, people are able to see beyond their immediate presence and have a fairer sense of right and wrong. I commend your attitude to try to make a new and better India. Keep up the good work.
by Peter, on 01.08.09 @ 1:10 pm
Arun,
Thank you for your kind words of support & encouragement – they are valuable & constructive comments that help bridge the gap of those marginalized.
The fate of those from North Eastern State differs from Indian Chinese because the former are Indian minority of Scheduled Caste while the latter are born Indians of Chinese ancestry. However, both are Indian citizens alike.
As with Anglo-Indians, the North Eastern State folks are protected with provisions in Indian Constitution that grant them priviledges of special quotas for higher education and other social facilities. Both have MLA in the State Legislative Assembly.
Here, the Chinese Indians are not seeking for any priviledges, rather than to peacefully co-exist with mainstream with least of harassment in economic lives in trade or otherwise in the land of birth.
Acceptance on par and not isolation as second-class citizens by mainstream are key ingredients to the success on diversity and racial harmony in a hierachial Indian society.
Arun, your thought process and determination are matured, positive and set in the right direction. Hoping to see all Indians, whether minority or otherwise, have the same goals and aspirations to build a new, better and stonger India.
Jai Hind!!!!
by Vishal, on 01.23.09 @ 5:30 pm
I support the comments posted here.
I fully agree with Bill that in this computerized age of the internet, irrespective of one’s background, everyone is given a common platform to a longer perspective of things with a better grasp of judgement to determine what is right and wrong.
Now, people no longer tend to shy away from being seen or heard. Instead, they become more open, vocal and not afraid to express their inner feelings freely and openly without any hindrance or holding back.
With above said, I hope that those with authority in the Indian Admininstration can hear the outbursts from the marginalized Indian Chinese community which had long suffered in silence.
by Ron, on 01.27.09 @ 7:43 pm
Thien,
Please post an interesting article from the source below:-
“Khaleej Times Online – Say sorry to the Indian Chinese” – you can get the full article from Yahoo Find by typing the words put in inverted commas.
It is a factual write-up of the Chinese settlement in India, specifically Kolkata, together with a few short notes from Paul Chung of the Indian chinese Association.
It is a good and must read for all.
by leon, on 01.27.09 @ 10:53 pm
awesome article… nice find … thanks for sharing with us
by Bill, on 01.28.09 @ 6:39 am
The article in Khaleej Times Online by S.N.M Abdi should definitely be posted here. This is the first Indian Writer that even brought up the subject of an apology to the Chinese Indians.
by ron, on 04.10.09 @ 9:35 am
There are millions of people in India with Mongoloid features and Mongoloid ancestry. The Hakka people who tried for greater integration have been very successful. Hakka people have been very successful in business in India. I am from Delhi and all my Hakka friends had stores and restaurants or were professionals.
Secondly during and after 1962 Chinese intelligence agencies have repeatedly targeted the Hakka community of Kolkata for recruitment. China has opened a Consulate in Kolkata for this reason.
Kolkata Hakka must merge with the Indian mainstream.
by Bill, on 04.13.09 @ 9:19 am
Ron is obviously not from Calcutta, so he has no idea of the state of the Chinese Indian community in Calcutta, pre-1962 and the current sad state of affairs of those remaining. I’m glad that those he is aquainted with are doing well. However, to get a sense of why the Indian Chinese community feel marginalised, he should visit Tangra and see for himself what the situation is like. I personally do not like the Communist regime in the PRC, but to theorize that the Chinese Consulate is re-opened in Calcutta to recruit spies is pure speculation at best and down right malicious at worst. This can only increase the marginalisation of the Indian Chinese community.
by ron, on 04.13.09 @ 12:21 pm
PRC recruits Chinese students and academics the world over for espionage activities. One of the reasons given by the PRC Consul general for opening the Consulate in Kolkata was the presecence of the Indian Chinese community. I am not saying they intend to indulge in espionage but their track record is very poor. Their embassies all over the world have been mobilizing overseas Chinese for political purposes including in Europe and North America.
Having said that, I do believe that Indian-Chinese should retain their traditions and culture. Freedom is the meaning of being Indian. 50% of Indians are economically under the poverty line. Communities have to stop depending on the government and help themselves. This can only be done with greater integration and not by isolation.
by Kumar, on 04.13.09 @ 6:45 pm
ron,
Your comments are baseless, immatured and utterly unwarranted. You are still living in the cold war era of self inflicted fear and intimidation. SHAME on you.
In this modern age of globalization, not sure if you’re looking for an audience by making such a creative but groundless gesture? If so, you’ve missed the point and sadly – a toad dwelling down in a deep deep well.
While you are trying to create and raise up a fresh and unnecessary fear and tension in an already fragile, delicate but improving relationships betweeen Indian mainstream and marginalized Indian Chinese – who have been persecuted for so many years, I wonder what’s in your mind to belittle this small community ?
If what you suggest is true – then sadly, the world’s LARGEST democracy is struggling and having fear of the “smallest Chinese community” in the world. Isn’t that shameful ? The bottom-line is that you are also humiliating the might of India’s intelligence against a tiny minority of innocent citizens. NEVER charged, NEVER tried but condemned.
LARGE Chinese communities exist in the U.S. (e.g. San Francisco), Canada (e.g. Vancouver, Toronto), Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Philippines – just to name a few – so the Governments and the mainstream in these countries should also fear of the Chinses community there for the same reason ?
Based on your theory, looked like that you have never ever ventured out of the borders of India for pleasure, business or whatever. Right ? If not, you should feel embarrassed to realize what you’ve commented above as totally naive and block headed.
Remember, large Indian communites exist in millions in South Africa, the U.K., Singapore, Malaysia and elsewhere – so are they also mobilized spies for democratic India ? And how many of this community are recruited for such purpose ? Any, nil, none at all ? The answer is that espionage exists in every country for intelligence purpose, it takes all colours, shapes and sizes. However, the host countries also have their counter-intelligence agencies to handle this.
Chinese Communism may not be perfect, their track record may not be good, so why, based on your theory, is the Central Government of India would allow them to open a consular office in Kolkatta – when having good reasons to believe that they would engage in espionage activity and nothing else ? and that their presense is causing more harm than good to India ? The India Government authorities should really look into this before it is too late, too little……………
Also, why wouldn’t the Chinese Consulate moblize ethnic Indians to do so when common sense suggest more easy accessibility to everything in India – when you proudly stated that 50% of Indians are living economically under the poverty line, so the recruitments exercise would definitely been easier and lucrative.
In democratic India, you have the freedom of expression; but sadly you have misused it to the detriment of hurting a minority group of India. You should cover your head like an ostrich in the sad. SHAME on you.
by Noor, on 04.13.09 @ 8:45 pm
ron,
Are you trying to divide & conquer Indian Chinese ? Do you know that those still remain in India are not just but majority Hakka ? Do you know the so called success stories of Indian Chinese (Hakka) in Delhi you mentioned are trivial when compare to their counterparts in rest of the world – economically and commercially – when India is such a big and populous country. These stories can hardly be termed successful.
Your comments proved how little knowledge you know about Chinese settlements in India – its history and developments. You should do some detail research on facts before you put forward some hurting personal views.
This small Indian minority (Indian Chinese) is far from perfect as a cohesive community; however, they still manage to live in harmony among themselves, other than the persecution from Indian mainstream in the past that glued them together.
Can you clarify & elaborate what you meant by the community should stop depending on the government and help themselves ? This can only be done with greater integration and not by isolation. To help you better understand the two sides of the matter, please re-read some comments from other writers above.
What is wrong with the Chinese Government to open a Consular office in Kolkata when there are still some Indian Chinese there ? Is the Indian or other Governments not doing the same for their people abroad – where most, if not, many have already given up Indian or other citizenship ?
Consular or embassy offices of every nation has a mission, a charter and a goal to promote/foster business, economics, cultural, educational ties etc…and not enmity or evil deeds.
by ron, on 04.13.09 @ 11:26 pm
If there was any hostility to the Indian Chinese then they would not have been allowed to settle in India. The very fact that they were given refuge in India speaks highly of the country. Secondly, it is incumbent on every community to build themselves up and integrate with the mainstream. The Hakka who migrate to North America or Australia face similar problems.
by ron, on 04.13.09 @ 11:44 pm
I think the Chinese intelligence agencies are already monitoring this forum and planting messages.
by Bill, on 04.14.09 @ 6:00 am
Ron,
Your dislike and hatred for the Communist regime in the PRC has turned you into a paranoid and skewed your logics. On the one hand, you claim that the PRC is recruiting agents among the Hakka community of Calcutta. This line of thinking can only hurt them. On the other hand, you are encouraging these same people to integrate with the mainstream. Why do you think the Indian Chinese are being marginalised? It is because of their ethnicity. It is human nature to only want to mingle with ones they consider their own. By making these unfounded accusations, you are giving the mainstream Indians a reason to isolate and marginalise the Indian Chinese.
If you really want to help the Indian Chinese, just keep your paranoia to yourself.
by ron, on 04.14.09 @ 6:41 am
Kumar, Indian government does not meddle in the affairs of Indians in other countries.
by Kumar, on 04.14.09 @ 8:17 am
You should study history about Indian Chinese settlement in India first and then do some more research on the same topic before your try to put SHAME upon yourself for speaking the unnecessary. FYI, the settlement happened during the Second World War and the British India rule. At that time, some Indians also fled to other nations for the same reason. During that entire period, the word hostility was unheard of. In fact, it was Chinni Hindi Bhai Bhai (BROTHERHOOD) even further down the road at a later stage after India Independence. Please watch Elias Rafeeque’s the Legend of Fat Mama documentary in this web to get some of your wrong personal views corrected.
It was only during and after 1962 Indo-China border war that created the madness of many (not all) Indians including yourself, who still today, no one in the highest authority dare to deny the fact of Indian Chinese persecution.
Read the past newspapers around the world during that period where reportings were made daily of sufferings on innocent Indian citizens of Chinese ethnicity were put into concentration camps. Some were even deported with their properties confiscated or auctioned. Isn’t that A SHAME – No one was ever charged, tried but condemned, the basic human decency and fabric of a democratic process.
So, your point about hostility to the Indian Chinese to settle in India is bizarre. The very fact that they were given refuge in India speaks highly of the country – “British India” and then “India after Independence up until 1962 period”. You need to get your facts right.
Secondly, you are right to say that it is incumbent on every community to build themselves up and integrate with the mainstream – The Hakka who migrate to North America or Australia face similar problems. So, what are you trying to relate here. For sure, the Indian Chinese have long been doing both in silence over the past 45 years and still continuing to do so. Do they need to report to you periodically about their non-acceptance by mainstream etc.?
Remember, Indians also reside abroad and have taken up settlements there too. Is there anything wrong with them, too ? Absolutely NOT. That’s a part of normal lives of every human settlements. The main difference is that the Indians living abroad were never persecuted because of their ethnicity as shown on their faces.
What makes you say that Chinese Intelligence is watching this forum and planting messages and NOT Indians with conscience in a democratic Indian society are also watching and planting messages in this forum to correct those with no conscience ?
by Kumar, on 04.14.09 @ 9:07 am
ron,
My earlier message 23 above was meant for you for introspection and witch hunt.
While you’ve lost your points in the discussion forum, you have revealed your true self of a RACIST. It is OK to be one in Bharat India – the world’s largest democracy but you put shame on all Indian brethens.
Remember, most Hakka Chinese are Indians too. How can you pass such remarks on them ? Is one Indian more superior than the other – if so, then what is Democracy ? I think your track records are no better off but worse than the Chinese Government whom you claimed to be meddling into the affairs of Indian Chinese.
Also, no one will or ever stop our Indian brethens going elsewhere where they think they would be successful ? What’s wrong with that. People have choices. Are you trying to dictate the Hakka Chinese livelihood ?
Who is hating India ? Has anyone said so in this forum. NOT ONE. Do not put words into people’s mouths. The word “hate” is being used for the first time here by you (ron) in this discussion.
ron, you went totally out of your head, wits and self respect when you utter these words:
“If you hate India so much, you should leave and find yourself a new home.
We gave you a home when you didn’t have any. We gave you shelter, we gave you refuge. Now you want to call us names. Is it our job to feed you?
Will you show any initiative and do something for yourself?”
While beggars cannot be choosers – Indian Chinese are not beggars.
Lastly, from what source did you approve that Indian government does not meddle in the affairs of Indians in other countries ? Can you share that with us here.
Jai Hind !!!!!!!!!!!!
by ron, on 04.14.09 @ 9:24 am
Firstly let me tell you that I went to school with Hakka kids and never felt there was any difference between them and me. My first friends were Hakka. I don’t think I would knowingly ever discriminate against Hakka people. I like the fact that India is a diverse country with people who may look different, speak many languages, eat so many different kinds of dishes, live in so many different ways and places, yet come together under the banner of freedom and equality.
I don’t think Hakka’s are marginalized because almost every Indian has eaten Hakka food. However there may be some people who are marginalized as they are in any society. To these people I can say that I recognize their problem, I understand their articulation of the problems and I hope they can find a way to overcome it. Who could have thought that Meiyang Chang would become such a big star? Most people I know, think he is very good looking.
The answer is not to blame India. India is sustaining 1.2 billion people. You may find Indian democracy faulty, but imagine if it were a totalitarian state! This democracy has not come easy. Hundreds and millions of our forefathers fought for decades to obtain it. You can keep articulating your greviences but don’t use this as an anti-India forum.
If you think that Chinese consulates to interfere in the affairs of the Kolkata Chinese (who are Indian citizens) then I think you need a meeting with Indian law enforcement agencies.
by ron, on 04.14.09 @ 9:34 am
I think one of the ways that Hakka’s can raise their profile is by paricipating in social and cultural activities whereever they live. They can also participate in charitable and volunteer activities.
Bridge building between communities helps a lot.
Another route to upward mobility and the surest one is to acquire education. The Hakka community should transform itself by acquiring the best education possible. Well placed Hakka people can sponsor education for those not well off. Fortunately education in India is not as expensive as in the West. Taking up Professional and vocational courses will make the community much better of. In India everybody looks different and there are millions of Indians who look different from each other.Everybody knows that and everybody understands that.
by Kumar, on 04.14.09 @ 12:01 pm
ron,
It is appaling plus sickening to read your further comments posted here. How can you flip-flop so easily ? Are you mentally disturbed ?
You sounded a veiled Indian Chinese (Hakka youth) in late twenties to mid thirties (who have never heard about the true fate of Indian Chinese of 1960′s era) – sick of the political framework you are bound within Indian Hakka community of Tangra. In reality, you are not a mainstream Indian, but tries hard to be one of those paranoid ones who carries the traits of racism at heart. Do not try to say that you love diversity in India when earlier you posted so many hate messages revealing your true identity. India is secular with diversity, learn how to respect yourself first before you try to respect others.
When you were at school as a kid & having your first friend as Hakka, is there any reason why you should feel different from them ? Aren’t they also human beings with two eyes, two ears, one mouth etc…? By your logic, is it abnormal not to discriminate them ? At least, from not doing so, you still have that little sense of normality and citizenship. Wonder if you were thinking to make fun of them at first sight ?
The banner of freedom and equality does not come easy, Indians fought hard for it to earn it. Now, it should be cherished; whereas you are abusing it to harm others.
If you do not know the meaning of “marginalization”, please refrain from using it. Eating Hakka food by almost every Indian has nothing to do with “not marginalizing” Indian Chinese. What logic is this ? From where did you learn this rationale ?
Meiyang Chang is no doubt a true star (good looking is not important) and an icon that represents not only secularim works in India, but also diversity. So, is Sonia Gandhi. However, you should also read about the racism attacks splashed out on them by some sections of mainstream Indians, but that’s FINE.
This is not an anti-India forum and it shall never be. Unlike your unlogical theories, you try to make this forum to be, confusing facts with personal opinions. No one here thought that Chinese Consulates interfere in the affairs of the Kolkata Chinese (Indian Chinese). It is you who first started this accusation. If so, it is you and nobody else that should meet up with the Indian Intelligence to put this matter straight. Do it now to speed up the process before India gets mutilated.
Your two cents of input on social harmony to help Indian Chinese is nothing new and not appreciated. You can keep it to yourself when you are not sincere but have harmed the community hard from left, right and centre.
by ron, on 04.14.09 @ 12:18 pm
Mr. Kumar quite obviously you did not understand what I wrote and want to continue wallowing in self pity.
You can ask L.K. Advani, Narendra Modi, Sonia Gandhi, Mahatama Gandhi, Mayawati and myself if we have ever been discriminated against and the answer will be YES. Does that mean I continue to be a cry baby? The answer is NO!
1962 is a watershed event in Indian history. It was not a normal event. Two countries which had only friendly contacts for 5000 years went to war in which thousands of Indians were massacred. What about the collective humiliation suffered by the Indians at that time, and the way it has impacted our national psyche? Indian Prisoners of War in Kunming reported that there were fluent Punjabi and Hindi speaking Chinese translators. They might have been from Pakistan or maybe even Kolkata.
If you find 1962 so difficult to forget then think what 1962 means to India and Indians. It was the single most momentous event in the history of India in thousands of years. It was our first defeat as an independent nation and it came from a country which we had introduced to the world stage. 1962 will influence 2062 and beyond. It cannot be forgotten by either you or the rest of India.
I am not asking you to follow my suggestions. However I have no ill-will towards Hakka’s or anybody else. However I still insist that the nation is bigger than all of us combined.
by ron, on 04.14.09 @ 12:27 pm
Kumar, I would also like to ask you WHO IS A MAINSTREAM INDIAN?
I have never met two Indians who are absolutely alike or the same?
There are 4000 languages in India and innumerable ethnicities. Is a Boro a mainstream Indian or is a Mizo a mainstream Indian? Is a Nadar from Kerala a mainstream Indian? Is a Sikh from Punjab a mainstream Indian? Do the Naga’s look like Maharashtrians? Do the Telegu’s look like Kashmiri’s ?
Do the Gurkha’s look like Bengali’s?
I can understand the problems of small communities and yes there is a risk of marginalization. However the way out of your problem is through revival and not self pity or embracing defeatism.
by ron, on 04.14.09 @ 12:32 pm
Kumar, let me also tell you that I have never for a minute imagined that Hakka were not human. I said that I did not see the difference between them and any other kids. To me they were friends like anybody else.
I did not even know they had come from China or anywhere else. In my school there were people from all over the country and invariably kids who spoke a particular mother tongue bonded more easily. So I bonded with the Hakkas because they spoke my mother tongue.
by Kumar, on 04.14.09 @ 3:15 pm
ron,
There you go….you are flip-flopping again………
Should a fresh war with China erupts (although 100% unlikely), I suggest that you join the Indian army immediately for a front line defense position so that you can point your gun at first hand, head to head, to the Chinse soldiers across in the battlefield. I support and will cheer for you. Jai Hind !!!!!!!!!
So, you admit that you are a Hakka Chinese.
You may have the last word.
It is pointless to keep educating you when you don’t even know the meaning of marginalization and mainstream ? Feel sorry for the school you’ve attended that churned out such a by-product. FYI, the Hakka Chinese who went to school with you as a kid are not Chinese, they are Indians. So, why bother they had come from China!!!
by Catherine, on 04.14.09 @ 4:14 pm
Kumar,
If you were asked to point a gun either to your mother or father, who will you point it to?
by Kumar, on 04.14.09 @ 6:05 pm
Catherine,
Very intelligent question asked…
ron probably have the best answer with good logic behind because he is in the right (perfect) position to do so.
It was for the very same reason (in my mind) when I suggested that he joins the Indian army since he was Hakka Chinese. Pointing the gun is not enough, the trigger should also be pulled…..bang, bang.
by Ismail, on 04.14.09 @ 8:18 pm
hi ron,
You don’t like PRC & I don’t, either.
I read with interests the comments you posted up here. I’m keen to learn more from you as guru, so just wondering how & where did you source the info below.
1) during and after 1962 Chinese intelligence agencies have repeatedly targeted the Hakka community of Kolkata for recruitment. China has opened a Consulate in Kolkata for this reason;
2)PRC recruits Chinese students and academics the world over for espionage activities. One of the reasons given by the PRC Consul general for opening the Consulate in Kolkata was the presence of the Indian Chinese community;
3)Indian Prisoners of War in Kunming reported that there were fluent Punjabi and Hindi speaking Chinese translators. They might have been from Pakistan or maybe even Kolkata;
Then you said:
4)I am not saying they intend to indulge in espionage but their track record is very poor. Their embassies all over the world have been mobilizing overseas Chinese for political purposes including in Europe and North America;
5) I think the Chinese intelligence agencies are already monitoring this forum and planting messages;
6) If you think that Chinese consulates to interfere in the affairs of the Kolkata Chinese (who are Indian citizens) then I think you need a meeting with Indian law enforcement agencies.
While there seem to be inconsistencies & disparities, overall I think it’s very well written. By the way, we in India also have many Indians who speak and write fluent Mandarin & other Chinese dialects and work as Chinese interpretors. What do you think ?
Thanks
by Bill, on 04.14.09 @ 10:55 pm
Hi Ron,
Understand your points. There is a need for the Indian Chinese community to get involved in the society they live in. Apathy can only breed neglect. Neglect breeds more apathy. The only way out is active engagement. Just leave the covert stuff alone.
by ron, on 04.14.09 @ 11:59 pm
Kumar
Firstly you make everything so dramatic and devoid of reason.
There is no question of fighting your father or your mother.
If you think children of Chinese immigrants in America are Chinese or the children of Indian immigrants in Africa are Indians……..then you are very mistaken.
I have met many Indian Americans and Chinese Americans and they are AMERICANS……maybe they too feel marginalized. African Americans are in good numbers but they have always felt marginalized….a large part of it may have been self induced.
All I am saying is that every body in this world has a chip on their shoulder, everybody has handicaps yet everybody also has abilities. Success is determined by using abilities and by not getting defeated by negative thoughts.
Your argument about who is the father and who is the mother is meaningless for the kids who have been born in India and have lived here.
India is a proud civillization and is the worlds oldest civilization. All the non-African people originate from India and it was Bodhidharma’s teachings which continue to influence China and East Asia even today.
Did you know that? The roots of Chinese culture can verifiably be traced back to India. Infact when you speak to many Chinese today, especially the over nationalistic types, they get very upset when they have to acknowledge the debt of Buddhism. This is one of the reasons why the Chinese government is now trying to spread Confucianism (also because it meets their political objectives). There is no question of father or mother. If you are a citizen of a country then you should know your rights and responsibilities.
by ron, on 04.15.09 @ 12:08 am
Kumar, a war between India and China is not unlikely. India’s rise is not seen favourably in Beijing and PRC does not recognize Arunachal Pradesh as being a part of India. PRC also funds many extremist organizations in India and is a steady supplier of weapons (including Nuclear bombs) to Pakistan.
Very few people know that during Kargil crisis, China had made several menacing moves, including trying to take over the Daulat Beg Oldie airport in Kashmir. They tried 12 times and failed.
The entire Indian border with China is disputed. China has settled its border disputes with other countries either through war or through coercion. India at this time is not a declining power, so the Chinese have not been able to force a solution down India’s throats.
It is very difficult for India and China to have friendly relations until the PRC is governed by a democratic government and it become a ‘normal’ country.
by ron, on 04.15.09 @ 12:16 am
Bill,
I think it is about time that the Indian-Chinese stop thinking of themselves as tourists or temporary workers.
They have rights as citizens and also duties. Besides for most Indian-Chinese, India is the motherland. So I really don’t understand this belonging “dilemma”. Once a Muslim friend told me that all his life he had been led to believe that Muslims from all over the world were one people….but when he went to Mecca, he realized he was an Indian first.
The light bulb went off inside his head.
I hope that this epiphany also dawns on people on this board. The sooner, the better.
by Bill, on 04.15.09 @ 2:47 am
Ron,
Totally agree. My parents moved to India from China. I settled in the US over 30 years ago, so I know a little about emigration and marginalisation. As I mentioned, active engagement is the only way to be recognised. The Chinese American community has in recent years become very active politically. The Indo-American community is more engaged than the Chinese Americans even though their immigration history is much newer.
I too hope that the remaining Indian Chinese community realise sooner rather than later that India is their homeland.
by Kumar, on 04.15.09 @ 8:26 am
ron,
As I mentioned earlier, you will have the last word. So be it.
Overall, your intentions are good & set in right direction but your arguments are still pre-matured, unconvincing & need polish.
Since there is such a flame & a burning desire within you to make good the Indian Chinese (as you are one of them) in Kolkata & elsewhere in India to feel proud as India’s sons & daughters of the soil (like the Bumiputra in Malaysia), you should be the first one to role model & step out of comfort zone to get involved in Indian politics.
It is only through politics that you will get first-hand engagement, be heard and be connected to the masses & people your serve and to meet other parties’ leaders who take part in decision-making for the country – all the way through from legislation to actions taken. This is what Rahul Gandhi said and did. Remember, respect is earned and not given. It does not come with words but with active participation, actions and credited deeds and results.
From that perspective, the Indian Chinese community will definitely support you whole-heartedly. There is no point to just talk about patriotism when there is no action. Also, it is meaningless to say what or what not to do for the community. JUST DO IT!!!!
There is lack of “a leader” in this tiny minority community. You should take the lead as an emerging leadership. All in all, forget about PRC and get the State authorities to nominate you to be a MLA as a starter. You need to negotiate to get there – like other minorities: Anglo-Indians and folks from North East States. If you emerge as another Meiyang Chang as the first Indian Chinese legislator in the country, then you are almost there in politics.
Interestingly, just want to share the videos below about Hakka in Dhapa, Tangra. Do you deplore the community’s views, like to hear your point of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEiodUdHEeY&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A83g0x0VDAI&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsTC6rXIfcM&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vamzH_RhWeU&feature=channel_page
Lastly, some good food for thought:
If you believe what you do is right and good for the community, then DO IT without fear or fervour. Why should you fear or be afraid of PRC or its intelligence agencies ? What makes you think that Chinese Intelligence is watching and planting views here ? Did you commit any crime that the world denounce ? If not, why be afraid when you are living in a Democratic India.
Good luck to you in your endeavour.
by Khan, on 04.15.09 @ 9:29 pm
ron,
Being a devout Indian Muslim myself, I read your comment below differently:
“Once a Muslim friend told me that all his life he had been led to believe that Muslims from all over the world were one people….but when he went to Mecca, he realized he was an Indian first.
The light bulb went off inside his head.”
My interpretation:
In that set of scenario, one should consider one’s roots first before everything else because you cannot change that till death (i.e. who you are and where you’re from); whereas you can change your religion at your will anytime. So, naturally – India should be placed first above religion.
Sorry to say that your friend wasn’t clear of his priority and applied the wrong logic to swtich off the light bulb inside his head. In any event, that must be a good experience for your friend to realize that he needed to set his priority right.
In Mecca, during Haj, thousands of nationals across the Muslim world attend – red, and yellow, black and white – you name it and they are there. Everyone wears the same costume and considers others in attendance as brothers or sisters from the one and same big family irrespective of travel from different countries. However, segregation of and identity by country is a natural human process. Like what you related about bonding well with Hakka kids at school because you all speak the same mother tongue.
by Wang, on 04.16.09 @ 5:48 pm
ron,
I am an Indian Hakka Chinese – an Indian citizen by birth like LK Advani, Mamanta Banerjee etc. I believe you are also an Indian citizen, too.
I was reading your postings here with apathy. But a question kept boggling in my mind. Please excuse me to ask you:
Do you ever feel ashamed or uncomfortable to being born into Hakka Chinese family and or feel intimidated of being called or referred to as such by your Indian friends ? I had been labelled “Chinna Chinna Chong Chong” so many times in my childhood days that I even lost count. Some even threw stones at me and asked me to go back to China etc. while walking in the streets for no reasons. Even so, I don’t hate my fellow Indians. I take it nobly as I am what I am.
If the answer to above question is no, then is there any reason for you to call your fellow community friends as “Hakka” friends and not friends, i.e. drawing a line of distinction of yourself away from Chinese ancestry while retaining that to your friends ?
In North America, all Asians or otherwise who became American citizens referred themselves as American. Those with Chinese ethnicity would not mind to be referred as American Chinese or American Born Chinese (ABC) and so on. They never feel ashamed to attach their roots of which they are very proud of.
A few years ago, I was going through U.S. Immigration in San Francisco Airport and the Immigration Officer asked me if I was ethnically Chinese because I was holding an Indian Passport and then he told me that he was ABC. He further asked if I knew what was ABC of which he was so proud of to reveal.
So, what’s all the HOO HAA here about who is the father and who is the mother ?
by Tsai, on 04.17.09 @ 5:18 pm
hi ron & Wang,
I’m Indian Hakka Chinese, formerly from Kolkata – now a NRI citizen living & working in an adopted country abroad in a professional position with a MNC. I have travelled the world over on company businesses & mostly on business class.
Just want to share my experience at Changi International Airport in Singapore during one of my many past transits & visits.
As I entered the flight lounge for my exit before boarding, I showed my Indian passport & boarding pass to final security check personnel, the “Indian Singaporean” lady (formerly from Chennai) at the counter looked at me with a smile & then a frown before flipping over my thick Indian passport bearing pages after pages full of visas, entry & exit stamps from many different countries.
We then exchanged courtesy greetings when she came with her first friendly question if I were ethnic Chinese & then asked if I could get the passport of my adopted country. When I said yes, she smilingly told me that I should consider doing so in order to know and experience what is hassle free travelling. I then smiled and left saying thank you.
The above incident had dawned upon me the complexities of being Indian Chinese and what it means to be one within & outside India.
ron, what are your views on this……you seem to have some very interesting postings above.
Thanks.
by ron, on 04.17.09 @ 11:59 pm
Firstly Mr. Wang
Let me just say that every community feels marginalized. The Jews feel marginalized, Chinese feel marginalized, Sikhs feel marginalized, Moslems feel marginalized, Hindus feel marginalized. A lot of the marginalization comes from your feeling of being marginalized.
I feel your pain when you say you have been called names. However I cannot understand why people would throw stones at you for no reason? The problem is not with you but with the people who threw the stones. May be they are savages.
I don’t know about ABC’s but originally the Chinese in America came to build the railroads, the same in Canada and in Canada they also had to pay a Head tax.
One has no choice but to be either proud or ashamed about ones ancestry. The issues of ABC’s are very different from the Hakka.
I am still not clear about what you were trying to say about the ABC. Nobody is trying to stop you from being proud of your Chinese ancestry, just as nobody is stopping people from being proud of their Moslem ancestry………..however you have to accomodate the fact that you cannot isolate yourself from the larger society. Hakka Chinese cannot live in a vaccum.
by ron, on 04.18.09 @ 12:05 am
Tsai
I have no idea why the Singaporean-Indian lady asked you to acquire a new passport. Maybe she did the same and has a chip on her shoulder. When it comes to travelling documents, you should just stick to what is legal, rather than go by what a Khichdi Singaporean-Indian (formerly from Chennai). What you did not realize was that you were more Indian than that lady. You should have thanked her for her advice and told her that you love your country too much to change passports. That would have shut her up and the frivilous chat would have been over in no time.
Here again your Hakka identity was playing tricks on your mind!!!!
Think, feel and be Indian. It is unlikely that you can be anything else now!!!
by ron, on 04.18.09 @ 12:13 am
Tsai
You know in America, it is very unlikely that second generation Chinese will speak Chinese like in India.
They will be forced to merge into the society and will have to give their own culture. This has not happened to us in India.
Maybe this should have happened to us.
by Wang, on 04.18.09 @ 8:06 am
ron,
My posted comment had nothing to do with “marginalization”, or “being Chinese” or “is Chinese”. Why do you mention or connect to these ? I think the meaning of “roots” was being made synonymous and confused. We are Indians.
(on the side line, you have also confused the word “patronization’ with “marginalization” in an earlier posting when you said that almost every Indian has eaten Hakka food. In essence, you meant that almost all Indians patronized Indian Chinese eateries or restaurants. That had nothing to do with marginalization.)
Ok. Let’s leave the word “marginalization” alone. It does not stop at “the Jews feel marginalized” etc, there ought to be a circumstance to it and the sentence should be followed by because………., let’s stop here on this point.
I totally agree (100%) with you on what you stated here which is true:
- you have to accomodate the fact that you cannot isolate yourself from the larger society. Hakka Chinese cannot live in a vaccuum. A lot of the marginalization comes from your feeling of being marginalized.
Well said.
My question to you & unanswered by you is about you carrying the baggage or label of being “Hakka Chinese” throughout your life – that it will never change, whether you like it or not, you have to live with it and people will continuously ask you and refer you. We cannot stop people from asking – just like your Muslim friend who went to Mecca.
Let me repeat my questions again: Yes or No
1) Do you ever feel ashamed or uncomfortable to being born into Hakka Chinese family and or feel intimidated of being called or referred to as such by your Indian friends ?
2)If not, is there any reason for you to call your fellow community friends as “Hakka” friends and not friends, i.e. drawing a line of distinction of yourself away from Chinese ancestry while retaining that to your friends ?
As you have said, the issues of ABC’s are very different from the Hakka. So, let’s leave the word “proud” to them.
Thanks.
by ron, on 04.18.09 @ 8:48 am
Wang
Here is the answer to your questions:
1. I have no reason to feel ashamed or embarassed about being Hakka Chinese or Indian Chinese of Kolkata Chinese or anyother thing. I am just a human being and I have no problems accepting who I am and I have no problems if people are curious about me. People are always curious about everybody and everything. If you are a small obscure minority then quite obviously people will be curious about you. That is a given. The advantage of being in a multi-cultural society is that people can be different. People may confuse Indians and Pakistani’s but there is no confusion about Sikhs!
2. I have no intention of creating divides. I want the Indian Chinese to be successful and do their community and the country proud. A chain is known by its weakest link. If the smallest of minorities in a country is not successful, then it does not speak well about the country. Which is why I want the community to do very well.
by Tsai, on 04.18.09 @ 11:51 am
ron,
Thanks for responding.
Since you had no idea why the Singaporean-Indian lady had asked me to acquire a new passport, it shows how “green” you are with zero or limited exposure to the “wholeness” of Indians beyond inland India.
As an Indian, you need to also look outside of India’s boundaries and understand the bigger picture. It’s not courteous to call that fellow former Indian lady names. From a different angle, when you think positively, she was actually trying to help.
We are all from one country and we are one people – Indian, but it takes many things to be Indians and not just we’re Indians.
Have you heard about Lakshmi Mittal ? the steel magnate, one of the top 5 richest man in the world rated by Forbes, an alumni of St. Xavier’s, Calcutta and once lived in Chitpur Road. All along, he retained his Indian Citizenship although he had taken up permanent residence in the U.K.. While others, many top and successful Indians in the U.S. – Scientests, Medical Doctors, IT professionals etc. – who in terms of their specialized expertise are better off than Mittal have dropped their Indian citizenship to become Indian Americans. What’s the problem here ?
Interestingly, all these folks are targeted for interviews by Indian media as India’s famous sons and daughters with equal importance of which they are also very proud to be acknowledged. Why then Americans ? The debate could be endless. You may question if they’ve lost patriotism – which is unlikely because most are still consistent major sponsors, contributors or donors of charities or national relief projects in India. The drivers may be many – convenience, better livelihood, opportunity….the list is endless. While every person is not the same, there is only one Mahatma Gandhi in this world.
At another lower levels, the overseas Sikhs (foreign nationals with India at hearts) pour millions of foreign monies every year into Punjab and Haryana from around the world and transforming their villages into modern cities and towns. Any problem here….
I wonder what makes you say that my Hakka identity was playing tricks on my mind. This had never occurred to me rather than the vast difference in Indians that I’ve met and experienced as colleagues, friends and acquaintences worldwide. What struck me is that all roads lead to Rome; there is no right or wrong, black or white, one hard or fast rule in many settings and yet, you may find many solutions to a problem.
Lastly, I agree with you that in America, it is very unlikely that second generation Chinese will speak Chinese like in India. I know this very well as I am part of it. This to me, is a bonus, a blessing than a curse. We should be proud of ourselves on this. However, for those in the U.S., I disagree that it is a forced merger rather than being dictated by the circumstances and environment which should be taken as given. Having said that, within the family framework, there are continuous struggles to keep their Asian identity where Chinese cultures and values are shared. The same applies to Indian American families.
While you questioned why this has not happened to us in India… Maybe this should have happened to us – only time will tell. To sum up in one sentence – the infrastructure for this to happen is not yet there. When things are ripe, it will be a natural transformation within the community to make it happen.
by ycl1688, on 04.18.09 @ 6:47 pm
All said and done, the Indian government at times of 1962 was not run by a wise bunch, it was the oversea chinese in india that suffered.
Remember the time when in kolkata all the chinese were ready for concentration camp in Rajasthan, our family has to prepare with small backpack of belongings.
Also in our school a chinese student one of the brilliant ones scored the top ten in ISC exam, could get the fund to future education, yet was denied the opportunity because his father was not an indian citizen.
I will never forget when entering Tangra from kolkata, in 1962 and few years later watching sport events at pei moy school would have to enter checkpoint at the entrance of dhapa. Forget about going from kolkata to delhi or other places in India.
Then there is the annual registeration of chinese in Foreigners Registration office and the obtaining of Certificate of Id of stateless Chinese to leave India, my parents went thru all that pains.
It is open discrimination, yet nobody stood for the chinese in india.
Had there been a Chinese consulate to protect the chinese things would not have gone out of hand.
Anyways I thank the Indian govt for giving me the opportunity to learn chinese and entered the local english missionary school, luckily they did not shut down the chinese schools in Calcutta, that was a blessing. And now all over india you see chinese food has a great influence.
We have to look forward and
forget and forgive.
by Chen, on 04.18.09 @ 8:33 pm
ycli1688,
Thanks for your comments. Every line is true to heart. Let’s hope history will not repeat itself for our future generations.
The Indian Chinese survival has not come easy. It is still far from perfect. As with any community, besides political affiliation differences, there’s in-fighting within the clan.
The guiding principle is: United we stand, divided we fall.
To: all readers:
A “hate message” comment posted here earlier for the community was removed, please be a responsible citizen to what you post.
by Shaun, on 04.18.09 @ 9:32 pm
Hi ron & Kumar
Kumar earlier suggested that a fresh war is 100% unlikely to happen again between India & China, while ron theorized that it is not unlikely and will happen due to India rise.
ron – being an Indian Hakka Chinese (Indian citizen), are you all set to welcoming the emerging war having your backpacks & belongings all wrapped up in readiness to go to Deoli camps in Rajasthan for a new living ? Wish you best of luck on your livelihood there!
by leon, on 04.18.09 @ 11:10 pm
well said by ycl1688 , think we should forget and forgive all the bitter past. recently i read a news stating that india and china are not just becoming partners but strategy partner. Which is a very good news for us.
indo-chini bhai bhai .. lol
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 5:06 pm
YC firstly let me say that you would have been safer in a camp in Rajasthan than in Chairman Mao’s China. After Mao finished with the Indian’s, he went on to kill 70 million of his fellow Chinese in the next twenty years. He also killed all the sparrows in China (because they ate grain) and denied medical treatment for cancer to Chou-En-Lai the architect of the Indo-Chinese war in 1962. It was Chou-En-Lai whom Nehru had introduced to the world at the Bandung conference and it was Chou-En-Lai who stabbed the Indians in the back. I think the very fact that you expect a Chinese consulate to intercede on behalf of the Hakka Chinese with the Indian government shows your loyalties. I think it is better to leave a country you hate so much. You can become a refugee in China if that is what appeals to you.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 5:14 pm
Tsai
I did not really understand your posting. The only part I understood was about the infrastructure for Hakka integration into mainstream society not being available.
I wonder if such an infrastructure is available anywhere in the world. China Town’s as a phenomenon came up for some reason. Having lived in Canada and USA, I can vouch for the fact that mainland emigrees don’t really relish the prospect of integration and the older they are, the more difficult the task becomes. You will find that a lot of mainland Chinese people in North America will not even bother to learn English if its not required for vocational purposes.
So I think the burden of integration falls more on the migrants. Nowdays, knowing English and local history has become necessary for the citizenship exams in Western English speaking countries.
I think as a migrant community who came into somebody else’s land to avail opportunities, our forefathers had a fairly easy entry and refuge. Let us not be ungrateful. Indians did not invite our forefathers. Our forefathers came to live here by their own choice. I for one don’t think it was a mistake. If somebody feels otherwise, what is there to keep them here?
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 5:15 pm
Leon
China will never acknowledge India as a friend or a partner. It see’s India as a competitor. China wants to be the dominant power in Asia and does not want any rivals.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 5:18 pm
YC LI
How would you like to be a Tibetan in China?
by Dan, on 04.19.09 @ 5:50 pm
ron,
Earlier, you asked Kumar that you did not know who is mainstream Indian ? However, in that entry posted, you’ve unknowingly identified & stated a couple of mainstreams & minorities – scheduled castes, tribes etc…… not knowing which is which. In another entry, most of those you mentioned with Mongoloid features should belong to Indian minorities group.
Firstly, without knowing who is “mainstream” as a base, it was unkind of you to direct “hate messages” to dwarf your own little Indian Chinese Hakka community (consisting only a few thousand Indians) – that “fits into” a minority in mother India like Anglo-Indians and people from the North East States, but not yet been acknowledged so.
In the Indian Constitution, in which it enshrines the rights and duties of all its citizens, everyone is equal in the eyes of law. Further, as India is such a large and complex democratic establishment, i.e. a country dominated with castes system etc. there are provisions in the Constitution that protect the weaker sections of the coummunites like lower castes, scheduled castes, tribes, OBC, Anglo-Indians and so forth. Other than these fellow Indians formed in this group, the other majorities are “mainstream”.
Regretably, I do not think that Indian Chinese (mostly Indian citizens), a small community of minority is ever mentioned in the Constitution. You should do some research into this, if you are interested in Indian politics and be a emerging leader of this group.
The provisions on protection of minorities, scheduled castes, tribes, lower-castes, OBC’s etc….include & not limited to special quotas, priviledges & preferences on education and other social activities & development.
In order to hear the minority groups’ voices, the State Authorities provide MLA (Members of Legislative Assembly) seats for them as a a link between the States and the community represented so that their grievances and pleas heard.
Having said the above, it is not right for the minorities to be fully dependent on the Indian Government for uplift and support on fundings and special quotas etc… On their own, they should also take active role in their citizenship to contribute to the success of India from whatever ways they can, as all other Indian citizens.
ron, is this what you were looking for ?
by ycl1688, on 04.19.09 @ 6:22 pm
Ron,
One thing you get to be cleared about is we are here to discuss Indian Chinese plight in India, not about Tibetan refugee, please do not mix oranges and apples, Tibetan want independence that is a big no no, you got to understand China has five majority races mongolian, Han chinese,
Tibetan, Muslims, manchurians. This truth cannot be denied. Just like Taiwan wants independence that is another big hurt. It is written with the US president nixon travel to China with Shanghai declaration, there is just one China as simple as that and Taiwan is part of China. There are so many violence involve with independence – assam, palestine, punjab, hawaii, just to name a few. the fact of the matter is who wants to be a refugee.
I presume you live in US and so do I live in US we are previleged, yet so many hardship faced by those who are living in old country, my relative was born in china and have to learn a little Hindi to become Indian Citizen that took 12 years to get it on top of 55 years living in india even you get doctor license will be easier I believe. This is reality.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 6:38 pm
YCL 1688Firstly let me tell you very clearly that I am Indian first. I may be Indian Chinese but that is just a term. It is not my nationality and it is not my relgion and after 1962 I want to permanently delete anything to do with China from my name and my family. I was born an Indian and I will die an Indian. I used to live in USA but now live in India in Kolkata. I think it is absolutely fair that anybody wanting to become an Indian citizen should have to learn the National Language. This is common practise in most Western democracies. Tibet is a very important issue because Tibet is an example of the barbarism of Chairman Mao and the Communist Party of China. It was an independent country which was annexed by China and that became the basis of the 1962 conflict. Tibet cannot be ignored. Just to let you know that Han Chinese make up 95% of Chinese population and there are almost no minorities in China. The Muslim population has been halved !!! The massacres of Tibetans and Muslims in Tibet and Xinjiang are major human rights issues. Most minorities in China have been made to nurse an inferiority complex. I met a Mongol colleague and she was very reluctant telling me that she was Mongol, she kept emphasizing that her husband was Han Chinese…….as if that gave her some legitamcy in being a Chinese national.
– comment edited due to personal attack–
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 6:43 pm
Dan
Unfortunately the Hakka Chinese population is so small that it will not be able to elect even a Municipal Councillor. I donot wish to be the leader of this group. Whoever chooses to be the leader should start a signature campaign and take the demands to the Chief Minister and the Minister for Minority Affairs. That is the democratic process. I am sure if we do this, there will be no pogrom against us and we will not be persecuted like the monks in Tibet.
by ycl1688, on 04.19.09 @ 6:45 pm
wang,
your comment on the four letters ‘c’ by those misguided souls have its origin from Burrabazar that famous cook tower church symbol has gold one made was stolen by chinese using kung fu, hence the nickname hailed to you, on a lighter note it happened one day many years ago in kolkata cheena para I was walking with a friend, the same remark was made and my friend replied ‘ Hum app ka baap ka bart… chori kiya’ (for those who may not know loosely means I stole your father (private part). that was the hilarious moment and there was a pin drop silence.
Ron,
Had there been a consulate at that time of 1962, those willing will be in the consulate compound and not be sent to Rajasthan and China has the right to send in transportation to transfer them back to china. Look at the fate of japanese in intern camp, the govt of US has to pay compensation after being sued.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 6:50 pm
YCL1688
Please sue the Indian government and get the compensation if you were harassed in 1962. What is stopping you? File a PIL in the Indian Supreme Court. India is not Communist China where you will be put into jail for raising a human rights issue. Do you know the fate of human rights petitioners in Communist China?
See the BBC website for more details.
by ycl1688, on 04.19.09 @ 6:58 pm
Ron,
you are a bit out of hand in this constructive discussion, we are here to talk about the plight of Chinese in kolkata, what has to do with my english being shaky, wasting time in US and my associate with Communist,
let me clear one thing you are not my English teacher, you are not the one to guide me where to live and i have worked with the KMT chinese paper in kolkata, be all you may be please do not launch personnel attack on others, the admin of this board should realize this discussion is not about personal hatred. No wonder earlier someone wrote a blend remark shame on you. that was justified.
Admin,
Please take Ron seriously he is the one to downgrade this healthy discussion board to lower level, which is not a wise thing to do.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 7:01 pm
YCL 1688
I am offering constructive suggestions on how to address the issue of 1962. You seem to be turning this into an Anti-India campaign.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 7:07 pm
YCL 1688
I have no intention of attacking you personally and any offense felt by you is regretted. However when you accuse my country of wrongdoing and say nasty things about it, then please be prepared for criticism.
I do not want the Indian Chinese community to be tainted with the label of being Anti-Indian, because I am Indian and I am sure most members will agree with me that we are Indian and we should not insult our country regardless of whatever greviences we may have.
by ycl1688, on 04.19.09 @ 7:10 pm
ron,
I have no intention to influence anti indian sentiment into this discussion, what my writings are on reality that I faced individually.
I have seen the people in Kolkata helping my relative out of a taxi during an accident, my school mates are all indians and they respect me as a person rather than a Chinese.
Anyways life is too short to escalate this into a heated discussion at the end only cooler heads prevail.
end of discussion for me in this board. I have voiced my opinions, whether you like it or not so be it. Good bye and good luck.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 7:19 pm
YCL 1688
I am sorry that you think you have had to face injustice. I agree that injustice has to be fought. Fortunately India offers you the right to fight that injustice. It also gives you the mechanism to fight that injustice. I may be mistaken, but your postings do read (at least to me) as being Anti-Indian. Although a court may even uphold your right to criticize the Indian governments actions…….a statement against India, the nation and its people is certainly in bad taste. YCL 1688 even your dignity pales into insignificance when the dignity of the motherland(India) comes into question.
I wish you would stop referring to yourself as Chinese and atleast call yourself Indian-Chinese out of respect to the people on this board.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 7:20 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7047154.stm
by Tsai, on 04.19.09 @ 8:05 pm
ron,
I didn’t know that you are such a blocked head (sorry to call you that). Maybe, ignorance is bliss.
What I tried to explain in my posting was that the world is round and big. Round means it goes in circles. Big means it’s virtually boundless.
Indian citizens worldwide may behave differently, rationally or irrationally and that is ok. It never requires an Indian look, a turban or a legal passport to prove one’s Indian-ness or patriotism to mother India.
They are numerous ways to be patriotic – some silent, unspoken and some loud and clear. Also, patriotism has no patent rights – foreign nationals with Indian hearts living abroad can be more patriotic than those Indian MP’s that sit in the Upper and Lower Houses of Parliament debating day in and day out. Ironically, it can often be more so of these people from foreign shores that love the motherland more – with their tireless efforts raising funds to building up rural India with amenities and facilities.
FYI, I’ve lived in more places than you thought and travelled to more countries than you imagined on business or pleasure. The only place I’ve not put footprints on yet are South America and Antarticas. I have many Indian friends around the world whom I studied/worked with in the U.K,, U.S, Canada, Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, etc. (I have a Muslim friend who went out to eat pork dishes with me in London Chinatown to pass highly demanded professional exams!).
On development of infrastructure of a community, there is no particular mould that is a good fit (perfect) found anywhere in this world. Like any society, nothing is flawless. The community needs to carve it out themselves on what they would like it to be as they are the ultimate beneficiaries, stakeholders and interested parties. Even in a democratic society like the U.S., there is never a full and complete system of justice ? You are a fool if you believe so.
ron, why do you worry about how the old mainland emigrees do or do not in North America. A saying goes that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. So be it. Leave them alone.
Also, immigration rules in North America have all along require English skills and American /or Canadian history simple Q&A tests for citizenships. This is not something new but given. My aunt’s mother did her tests at aged 80+ in Vancouver, an emigrant from Kolkata and passed. The exam for her was unique though. She died at aged 102.
One should allow integration to take its own course and evolves over time. In Canada & elsewhere, there are courses and integration programs for new immigrants. These days, not all immigrants stay in their new adopted countries. Many opt to return back to their home countries for various reasons – this is not something new. Immigration is now no longer a one way journey as in tbe bygone days. Everyone has a choice and can exercise it. Also, most immigrants are not refugees these days. That is a misconception. Investment immigrants bring in tons of monies and work for their newly adopted countries. They bring in job opportunities to their adopted countries’ citizens.
Why do you say immigrants’ landing in somebody’s land ? The U.S. & Canada are called “immigrant-countries”, i.e. citizens of which made up mainly of immigrants or former immigrants. Other than native Indians (Red Indians), eveybody else is once an immigrant.
Lastly, our Indian Chinese forefathers are dead and gone. It is out of respect if we put any blames on them for bringing us to India. We should be thankful for who we are today.
It is not ethical to post any hate messages for our community brothers and sisters here to ask them to leave India and get elsewhere. By International laws, the place of one’s birth is the ultimate place of one’s residence. For instance, a naturalized American born in India who committed a very severe crime, after charged, tried and found guilty can have his or her American citizenship ripped off and then deported back to India for good; whereas India has no choice but to accept that person back.
ron, I’m not sure what’s in your mind ? Please join Indian politics immediately and then all your questions still lingering in your mind will automatically disappear. Would you ?
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 8:15 pm
Tsai
I have agreed with you all along. What makes you think that I am saying anything different.
The only point that seems to be misunderstood by you is that our forefathers came to India as immigrants and refugees…and instead of having a Thanksgiving (like in US and Canada) we end up criticizing the same people who gave our forefathers a chance to live with them in their country. My point was that we should not be ungrateful.
Other than that, I am in total agreement with you.
by Tsai, on 04.19.09 @ 9:57 pm
ron,
Aren’t we talking about freedom of speech and expression in a democratic society ? Sadly, you have tarnished India’s image by nailing its democracy shame to dead.
Why are you trying to dictate others’ point of view that is different to what you think “must be” it and right; and disallowing others to speak up their minds on this board ? You’re a looser for your emotion, abusive and hate messages sent to this board.
Is there anything wrong with criticising ? Isn’t this is the norm of a free world where citizens are encouraged to speak up to challenge the status quo, be it right or wrong ? Unless one is living under a strict dictatorial regime, this is barred and forbidden.
To correct you, note that not all Chinese immigrants who came to India are refugees. My maternal grandfather came as a merchant. In those days, he lived in Park street and used to travel frequently to and from China, Hong Kong and India by ships. Lastly, to get it politically right, our Indian Chinese forefathers came to British India or Colonial India; not to the same Bharat India that you know of today.
by Ron, on 04.19.09 @ 10:19 pm
Tsai
you have just weakened your own argument free speech. Am I not allowed to voice my opinion?
Secondly, I think your ancestors profited from this country and hence they stayed. The British India was also composed of Indian people and I don’t think the centuries old Indian ethos was absent at that time.
I am assuming that you think it was a mistake not to leave when the British left.
There are Hakka Chinese who have come after 1947 also and they also live in Tangra.
Look, I am sorry you don’t like India. I am sorry about your condition. Please go on condemning this country. Keep being ungrateful. Keep biting the hand that feeds you. I have not seen a bigger set of malcontents. I hope the Indian government reconsiders the camp in Rajasthan and puts you guys there.
by Dan, on 04.19.09 @ 11:18 pm
ron,
Since you do not want to be a leader of this group (Indian Chinese) and want to distance & dis-associate yourself with Hakka Chinese population (i.e. the ‘China” link from your name and family), you should go out your own to the mainstream masses outside to rally and support you to join Indian politics. There is then no limitation on the number of electors to get you elected. In any event, you mentioned that unfortunately the Hakka Chinese population is so small that it will not be able to elect even a Municipal Councillor.
With that done, you would not have to worry about who gets chosen as the group’s leadership or to start a signature campaign on demands that they would take to the Chief Minister and the Minister for Minority Affairs.
Regretably, no matter what you like or dislike, for now till death – you’ll have to live all your life with the baggage of an Indian Chinese.
To turn things around, you should consider to change the fate of your next generations. By marrying a mainstream Indian girl and to adopt her surname for your offsprings would help you to rid & unload your history burden forever.
If you are not yet married, then good luck to you to finding that beautiful mainstream Indian girl.
by Ron, on 04.20.09 @ 12:15 am
Dan
Firstly, your advice about finding a mainstream girl is totally unsolicited and not required. I have a beautiful Indian Hakka family and I have taught my children that we are Indian. I am sorry if I don’t feel Chinese. I also don’t feel like going and killing every Indian that I meet like some people on this board are in a mood to do. Mao said “Power flows out of the barrel of a gun”, but that was the culture our forefathers had left behind.
“Be the change you want to see”-Gandhi. He is the father of my country and I would advise you to follow his advice. Don’t wait for my leadership, be your own leader. In the words of Buddha “be the light unto yourself”.
Our effort was to find a solution, a solution can only come with understanding. It cannot come by nursing hatred towards Indians. Does the Dalai Lama ask the Tibetans to hate Chinese?
Your alienation is understandable but then what is your solution?
We cannot wage a war against the Indians? We cannot demand for a seperate homeland? If we cannot live here, then we have to go somewhere else…..that is a workable solution and the one adopted by a majority of the Hakka’s. Why live in misery? I, however am very happy to be in India and this is where I will be staying.
by Ron, on 04.20.09 @ 1:34 am
My appeal to all the Hakka brothers is that I understand your pain. You are facing a very difficult issue of identity and marginalization.
If you don’t like the country, if you don’t like its people, if you don’t like its society, if you don’t like its culture, if you don’t like its politics, please don’t let hate build inside yourself. Look for alternatives, develop those alternatives and if that means leaving the country, then so be it. Don’t remain in misery. The Indian people are struggling themselves and they did not invite our forefathers to come to India. I am sure India will remember you and cherish the fact, that for a very short period in her very long history, you enriched her by your culture, traditions, cuisine etc.
by Bill, on 04.20.09 @ 5:16 am
Ron,
All the anger you ooze in your postings stems from the fact that you are ashamed of your Chinese ancestry. Even Leon’s attempt to ease the tensions has been rebuffed by you. Unfortunately, the source of your shame can never be completely eliminated. Instead of wasting your energy in this impossible dream, why don’t you channel it constructively to improve the lives of those around you.
Peace and good luck to you.
by Ron, on 04.20.09 @ 6:17 am
Bill
If trying to stop abuse against my motherland is my crime, then I am guilty of commiting it. I don’t mind this being turned into a rant forum by aggreived individuals but when it turns in needless India and Indian bashing then unfortunately all decent people have a right to step in and stop this abuse. Indian Hakka’s have always lived peacefully and I am unwilling to give disgruntled members of this community to give it a bad name.
I am also sorry to tell you that I do not define an individual in the narrow terms of his ethnicity. I can only humbly appeal to you also to not do the same. People are more than their ethnicities. There is a common humanity that binds the world. Please try to remember that .
by Bill, on 04.20.09 @ 7:02 am
Ron,
As Kumar noted, you will always get the last word in. I am not arguing, nor will I engage in any arguement, with you. You are an angry individual. Leon did not in any way insult anyone, yet you rebuffed him.
Once again, peace.
by Dan, on 04.20.09 @ 9:06 am
Ron,
You’re from Tangra Chinatown, Kolkata & not Delhi as previously claimed.
I’m happy that you’ve a beautiful Indian family. From what you’ve said, you’re still struggling to eradicate “Hakka Chinese” link. It is unfair for you to pass this on to your Indian children. While living in Tangra Chinatown, I’m sure that somehow & somewhere, you’ll be made to feel uncomfortable to see some “Chineseness” in your surroundings.
Joining Indian politics is the only means or solution to rid you out of what you’re in today. However, you’ve declined to lead the Hakka Chinese community and yet not said yes to going it outside to the masses by yourself. If you start your political campaigns from the slums and bustees, you would have alot of takers to rally & canvass for your nomination to electoral candidature. You should seriously consider this.
To shed that “Chinese Hakka” links, here’s something you can do to start from home:-
1) Consider moving your family out from Tangra Chinatown if you find the “Chinese” environment stifling to nurture your Indian Children. In U.S, this is what many new immigrants do to integrate their families and language skills – they move out of Chinatown. Think about moving into areas where only mainstreams live so that your Indian children feel belonging.
2) “Chinese” cultures and values should not be shared with your children. While they bring more harm than good, spoken “Hakka Chinese” should be banned at home while only rich Indian values and cultures indoctrinated. The Indian basics:-
a) wearing the Indian traditional costumes of dhoti, pyjama, kurta, sari etc. to normalize belonging & oneness at all times, e.g. like what Rahdul Gandhi is doing;
b) teach correct techniques of eating with hands – proper way of handling rice and food into the mouths; banned chopsticks & bowls from dining tables. This is an art and need teaching and constant practice.
c) sit on the floor to eat food – for breakfast, lunch and dinner. A valued tradition and daily norm of Indians worldwide;
d) eat only Indian food, chappati, roti, dal bath, curries etc. (you may not know that in Lakshmi Mittal’s private plane, only roti, curry & dal bath are served) – help your kids to forget & shun chowmein, noodles etc.;
e) use water & hands instead of tissue paper for toiletry purposes. This is very important. It is a respected Indian tradition strictly followed by Indians worldwide. (If you’ve been to Singapore, you know what this mean; i.e. how Singapore Government respect the Indian minority to provide this arrangement in all facilities – in office & residential complexes.
3) Take action to withdraw your Chinese name & surname by filing an affidavit with Municpal Corporation on birth & death registry. Choose Indian names and surnames. Then there won’t be chance for people to ask about your roots, rather than Indians.
With above done, I guarantee that in no time, you’ll find a big change in you & your family. While one cannot be only “half” Indian, it really takes time to get fully assimilated. These are a few tips for you to start off if you haven’t thought of doing so.
I’m sure your family already speak the Indian languages fluently, so no efforts needed here as given.
Good luck to you.
by Ron, on 04.20.09 @ 9:26 am
Bill
I shall let you have the last word. Do whatever makes you happy buddy.
Dan
Thanks for stooping so low. If Indians were as closeminded then nobody would be eating Chowmein in Delhi and India and my family would certainly be poorer. I am from Tangra but have been doing my business in Delhi for some years now.
I hate to point out that even the overseas Chinese in USA and Canada eat with forks and spoons because they find it faster!
Secondly let me add that the Chinese culture has been derived from Indian culture. Most of what we think of Chinese culture has been taken from India at the time of Bodhidharma(Damo) and also through Xuan Zhang and other travellers. In mainland China, one of their classic books is “Journey to the West” which is about the travels to India and features a Monkey King inspired by Hanuman. There is a Chinese blessing “May you die in western heaven” which means it is blessed to die in India, the land of the Buddha. Guanyin another popular godess is inspired by the Buddha of compassion.
How do you think the Chinese wash their backside in mainland China? Do Indians eat Chicken claws or Pig’s ears or tongue?
I could go on and on…nobody is asking you to forsake your ethnic identity. Nobody has asked you to do it in all these years. This is a democratic and multi-cultural country and not a totalitarian state like China.
- comment edited by admin -
by Dan, on 04.20.09 @ 9:53 am
Ron,
Why are your interpreting my good intentions in a negative way. I am trying to remove that “Chinese” baggage of yours by building the basic foundation framework of Indian traditions.
Have I said anything vulgar or improper ? What is wrong with what I said about using water and hands for toiletry purposes. Wealthy Indians in UK, Singapore and elsewhere do, is there anything wrong ?
Like Kumar, Bill and ycl188 said, you shall have the last word. So be it.
by ycl1688, on 04.20.09 @ 3:59 pm
Dan,
You have said enough to that individual, hats off to you, let a sleeping
dog sleep, take it easy and consider you have done your part in this discussion, it is up to the admin of to close this discussion and I would not have written all my thoughts on this board had I not been living in that situation in period of time. It is simply my ways of writing and I was accused of being a communist sympathizer, with shaky english, to stay away from US and anti indian, to me it is simply a man of unstable mantle condition of that individual.
Well, all I can say is that person has a biting dog mentality. Stay from
this discussion let him write whatever he wants and make a fool of himself.
by Wang, on 04.20.09 @ 5:00 pm
yc1688
Thanks for refreshing my old memory. As our mutual “good” friend Ron says, I have to brush that rusty chip on my shoulder to turn back the time clock.
I now recollect the story about stealing a golden hand of tower clock of St Andrews Church (we referred it as the golden-cock clock). I was only a kid then & hardly believe the story was true. While I do not recall the origin of the four letters “c” with this clock story, I still remember that the church was located close to Lal Bazaar thanna and not far from Old Mission Church.
In those days, the four letters “c” were commonly lashed out targeting at any & all Chinese passerby. As a child, it was really tormenting when a large group of ethnic Indians, young and old, kept yelling CCCC at you causing you to develop actual nightmares. I was always frightened to go out in the streets unless very necessary, accompanied. Also, it was frequent then that, without any notice or reasons, while walking in streets, you would encounter a barrage of stones, big and small, hurled at you from all sides. What we did & reacted was to ignore them but to run away quickly for cover. Following which, then came the loud booing:” Ay Chinna, Chinna Muluk Jao, Mutti Kao.”
As I’d said earlier, I’d taken this without hate while it was “healed wound with dented scar.”
To all other readers here:
Please note that there is no political motive behind the information shared here. It is intended as a healthy discussion forum of Indian Chinese to recount their plight and experiences on the article posted up here by Leon on Indian Chinese facing marginalization.
There is no backlash. Hence, nobody should feel offended.
Please respect freedom of speech and expression, especially when everything written here is factual. HATE messages not welcome.
by ycl1688, on 04.20.09 @ 6:03 pm
wang,
you are absolutely right, those paras you know have been calmed down i believe a lot, later years after Bruce Lee movies have been such influence on the locals, you walk down their streets as if you were the local sheriff in the old western movie, no one dares to pass comments, this is where your chinese complexion gaining upper hand.
Thanks for offering such kind words to smooth down a turbulent climate here. And as always we are here to discuss constructive topics. And we are here to express ourselves of the topics we need to discuss, not to show off what education level you have, what income you are making. And nobody is above the others. As the saying goes anyone can be taken out of a ghetto, and you cannot take a ghetto out of a person.
by Varun, on 04.21.09 @ 7:48 am
To: ron (Hakka Chinese – a born Indian – parents Stateless Indian Chinese refugees – with Chinese look, Chinese Moi Yuan blood)
You had your “last say” from all Indian Chinese who posted comments here.
India is a multi-party democracy. We have freedom of speech and expression. Our democratic system breeds leaders with far sight & international vision. We open our doors & engage all countries to make a BETTER NEW India in this world. We are now a global player. We continue to progress in this direction.
India Communist paties, unlike PRC, have many power levels; they all are good friends of PRC. So are BJP and India Congress Party.
India & PRC are now engaged to make a stronger Asia. Our ties are enhanced through cultural, business etc. Large investments flow both ways with mutual imports & exports increased many folds. While being competitors, both are also strategic partners. Competition is a healthy phenomenon. Suspicion is given.
Stop bad-mouthing PRC to deter its normalisation of ties with India. The emerging trends are more PRC companies investing in India & more Chinese presence in India with expertise. So are Indians business & expertise to PRC.
You should consider moving your family & business out of Delhi and/ Kolkata soon, before you’ll be sent a ticket to spend the rest of your life in Deoli, Rajasthan. To get refuge, think about taking asylum in Dharamsala – a safe haven to clean souls.
Selling chow chow is no good in India. Selling biryani is better option to think Indian.
by ycl1688, on 04.21.09 @ 4:05 pm
Well said, Arun.
Narrow minded patriotism does not pay in this modern world, if ever a Rajasthan camp set up again it is for lunatic akin to Ranchi, not for normal person, this will be wiped out by world human rights group. Look at palestinians can no longer be confined nor Gitmo Bay in Cuba be set up, these things will not last.
God forbid if ever Rajasthan camp set up will be wiped out from the surface of the earth.
let that person you refer to live and let die.